How many others have noticed how common it is for active JWs to ostracize and shun other active JWs? As far back as I can recall, JWs have had an ongoing problem with cliques within congregations, and special needs talks would be given from time to time to address that trend. But, it seems to me that the practice has become even more pronounced with entire congregations actively shunning other congregations. My older brother--who is an elder--and our younger sister (a devout JW) actively shun one another. I have spoken to other ex-JWs who have commented that their active JW relatives have not spoken to one another for years, even decades. It would appear that, once one begins the practice of shunning, no one is exempt as a target. Before I officially disassociated, I commented on a JW email discussion group that I had been in seven different congregations in my lifetime. Each congregation did things differently from the others, and--without exception--each congregation felt it was the only one doing things correctly. A retired CO who was in that email group responded that I didn't realize just how accurate my observation was! I think it all begins with judging other individuals, then judging other congregations, and it just snowballs until it gets out of control. I also think COs have a lot to do with stirring up contentions between congregations. I'm interested in the observations of others--especially former elders--on this subject. Thanks!
Roger Kirkpatrick
JoinedPosts by Roger Kirkpatrick
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JWs shunning other active JWs
by Roger Kirkpatrick inhow many others have noticed how common it is for active jws to ostracize and shun other active jws?
as far back as i can recall, jws have had an ongoing problem with cliques within congregations, and special needs talks would be given from time to time to address that trend.
but, it seems to me that the practice has become even more pronounced with entire congregations actively shunning other congregations.
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My disassociation story
by Roger Kirkpatrick infollowing is a summary of events leading up to my decision to disassociate from jehovah's witnesses and the unforeseen results of that decision.. a young man named joel engardio produced a documentary about jehovah's witnesses called "knocking" which aired nationally on pbs.
i purchased the dvd from joel before it was even released and we exchanged emails.
joel had been raised by his jw mother and had been active in jw activities during his adolescence, but he was never baptized as a jw.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
Following is a summary of events leading up to my decision to disassociate from Jehovah's Witnesses and the unforeseen results of that decision.
A young man named Joel Engardio produced a documentary about Jehovah's Witnesses called "Knocking" which aired nationally on PBS. I purchased the DVD from Joel before it was even released and we exchanged emails. Joel had been raised by his JW mother and had been active in JW activities during his adolescence, but he was never baptized as a JW. He told me that he realized from an early age that he was a homosexual. He said he would love to be a JW but that homosexuals cannot become JWs. I replied to him, "You might be surprised how many JWs are homosexual but who follow the scriptural admonition to flee from fornication, the same as unmarried heterosexuals."
I had learned that the terms heterosexual and homosexual were coined in the nineteenth century and primarily denoted orientation, or sexual ORIENTATION, as opposed to behavior. Many dictionaries list the primary definition of both terms as denoting sexual DESIRE regardless of whether such desire is acted upon. (Similarly, dictionaries define an alcoholic as one having an unnatural desire for alcohol, and many who consider themselves to be alcoholics abstain from imbibing alcohol altogether.)
I related my conversation with Joel in an assigned talk on the Theocratic Ministry School in my local Kingdom Hall since it was relevant to the theme I had been assigned to discuss. One elder was upset by my suggestion that many JWs are homosexuals who remain scripturally chaste, whereas the Presiding Overseer (my brother-in-law, along with his regular pioneer wife) assured me that I had spoken correctly. The offended elder persuaded the rest of the elder body that I had expressed a personal opinion which conflicted with published Watchtower teaching. No correction of my comment was ever made by the elders, as is normal when an unapproved viewpoint is expressed from a Kingdom Hall platform. The Presiding Overseer never informed me of his change of opinion.
Two elders were assigned to speak with me regarding my views on homosexuality, and they made it clear that they held the view that one is homosexual only if one practices homosexual behavior. The congregation was never aware of this controversy, and no one else had been offended by my comments. The elder body asked me to put my reasoning in a letter to the Watchtower Branch office, and they sent a cover letter stating the position of the elder body. (Keep in mind, this was a non-doctrinal issue.) The Branch office responded, referencing the 1983 Watchtower article which provided the basis for the comment I had made in my talk. One elder told me that when they read the Branch's letter, he commented to the other elders that the Branch had vindicated me. Yet the elder body decided to reject the Branch's letter (which I learned local elder bodies are at liberty to do regarding non-doctrinal issues), and they informed me that if I persisted in expressing my view of homosexuality they would consider me to be an apostate. To say that I was stunned would be an understatement.
In retrospect, I consider that my local elders did me a favor, because that incident helped me change the way I viewed JWs, and, as Dr. Wayne Dyer used to say, "when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change." When I realized I could be labeled an apostate for expressing a viewpoint which had been published in the Watchtower (and which continues to be the official Watchtower teaching to this day), I also changed the way I viewed ones who had been labeled by JWs as apostates in the past, most notably the late Raymond Franz, former member of the JW Governing Body. I purchased and read his phenomenal book, "Crisis of Conscience," and I learned just how corrupt the Watchtower organization truly is, and it is all a matter of record. No wonder JWs are forbidden to read that book and others written by former JWs.
That is when I became inactive for the final time. The problem with simply becoming an inactive JW and not officially disassociating from the organization is that one is unable to move forward in one's spiritual journey. If an inactive JW seeks spiritual fellowship outside the Watchtower organization, one is subject to being disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy. Even after five years of being inactive, my Facebook posts were scrutinized by my local elders, and I was visited by two elders when I posted a Watchtower article which claimed JWs were God’s prophet today. I was cautioned about posting anything which, in the words of those elders, brought "reproach on the organization." That is when I decided to write my letter of disassociation.
I had learned that after a 1991 Watchtower article denounced as apostate religious organizations which had become accredited to the United Nations as non-governmental organizations, the Watchtower Society also became accredited to the UN as an NGO from 1992 until 2001, and withdrew its membership only after the Guardian newspaper published an expose. My disassociation letter made it clear that my conscience would no longer permit me to be associated with a religion which, by its own standards, had become an apostate religious organization.
My wife of 42 years had been okay with my simply being inactive, as I had been inactive for years at a time throughout our marriage. Yet, when I officially disassociated, her attitude toward me immediately changed, and she soon informed me that she intended to divorce me. Subsequently, she consulted a marriage counselor who had helped her best friend work through a rough period in her marriage, and my daughter and I assumed that my wife was having second thoughts about divorcing me. However, she told me that the difference was that her best friend's husband still desired to be a JW and I did not, confirming the fact that my disassociation was the cause of her seeking a divorce. While JWs are mandated by the Watchtower organization to avoid any contact with ex-JWs, neither the Bible nor the Watchtower encourage JWs to divorce or shun their mates who leave the religion. Yet, my wife intends to divorce me and to shun me because she WANTS to do so. I feel that this illustrates the destructive effect oppressive religious cults have on the thinking and reasoning abilities of their adherents. As my 36-year old son said regarding his mother's decision, "Isn't it interesting how witnesses can seem to overlook obvious scriptural principles that conflict with their ideas when they want to ease their own conscience!"
At 1 Corinthians chapter 7, verses 12, 13 and 15, the apostle Paul counsels Christians, "If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and yet she is agreeable to dwelling with him, let him not leave her; and if a woman has an unbelieving husband, and yet he is agreeable to dwelling with her, let her not leave her husband. But if the unbelieving one proceeds to depart, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under servitude under such circumstances, but God has called you to peace." Since I have not renounced my Christian faith, I wondered who, in my situation, was acting as the unbeliever. Then, a friend asked, "Well, who is the one that is ignoring scriptural counsel and leaving?" It became obvious to me at that point that, by my wife's leaving, God has called me to peace.
~ Roger Kirkpatrick
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Witnessing to two JW elders
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini was approached by two jehovah’s witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the jw .org website.
each man carried a bible and an apple ipad.
they told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the bible, and asked if i was a bible reader.
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Letter to my JW elder brother
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini sent the following letter to my older brother, a jw elder in grand prairie, texas, who actively shuns me since i left the religion for conscientious reasons two years ago.. may 11, 2017. dear ronnie,.
in the opening scenes of the movie gone with the wind, a field worker hollers out, “”quttin’ time!” big sam protests, saying, “i’s da fo’man on tara.
i sez when it’s quittin’ time.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
@Pete Zahut, your point of view is as valid as anyone else's. You may be right.
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Letter to my JW elder brother
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini sent the following letter to my older brother, a jw elder in grand prairie, texas, who actively shuns me since i left the religion for conscientious reasons two years ago.. may 11, 2017. dear ronnie,.
in the opening scenes of the movie gone with the wind, a field worker hollers out, “”quttin’ time!” big sam protests, saying, “i’s da fo’man on tara.
i sez when it’s quittin’ time.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
@Pete Zahut wrote:
<<At the risk of sounding paranoid>>
Yeah, Pete, paranoia is one of the effects of denying one's true self for so long just to keep from being expelled from a corrupt religion by a group of self-righteous numbskulls. I'm not paranoid any longer. Embracing one's true self is the one of the most exhilarating sensations in the world. As for any future relationship with my brother, I am not interested. He's a pompous ass and always was.
As far as anyone reading information posted on this site, it should be perfectly clear by now that nobody gives a tinker's dam about Jehovah's Witnesses, except for JWs and ex-JWs. Outside of the Watchtower cult, JWs are a complete joke.
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Letter to my JW elder brother
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini sent the following letter to my older brother, a jw elder in grand prairie, texas, who actively shuns me since i left the religion for conscientious reasons two years ago.. may 11, 2017. dear ronnie,.
in the opening scenes of the movie gone with the wind, a field worker hollers out, “”quttin’ time!” big sam protests, saying, “i’s da fo’man on tara.
i sez when it’s quittin’ time.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
@TTWSYF, here's a little something I learned long ago: When one writes a letter and mails it, that letter virtually takes on a life of its own. When two people have a face to face conversation, they can walk away with two different perceptions of what was said. Same thing with a phone conversation. An email or a text message may never be received, read and replied to. A written letter is different, but there is a greater responsibility attached to writing letters. Thus, writing letters keeps the letter writer honest. I couldn't care less whether my brother read my letter or just tossed it in the trash unopened. That letter lives and carries with it a certain amount of energy, as is evident from the replies from those who read it on this site. It will continue to be read by many others besides my brother, because it has been shared on a number of blogs.
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Follow-up to my letter to my JW brother
by Roger Kirkpatrick ina follow-up to my letter to my brother which i posted earlier: .
my brother, ronnie, had texted my sister, linda, and me regarding our late mother's estate.
linda engaged ronnie in a text conversation about our mother’s ashes because he has ignored her texts for several years.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
A follow-up to my letter to my brother which I posted earlier:
My brother, Ronnie, had texted my sister, Linda, and me regarding our late mother's estate. Linda engaged Ronnie in a text conversation about our mother’s ashes because he has ignored her texts for several years. His response to her last text was so arrogant that I couldn't resist the urge to respond:
LINDA: I love you, Ronnie. Whatever you do with Mama is fine with me. I am just a curious sort. Will you still keep in touch with me now? I wonder about that as well. I haven’t heard anything about Larry since I was there 5 years ago. Or you either, practically.
RONNIE: I have no problem keeping in touch, but we have little in common. Our lives are centered around the truth.
ROGER: I think what you meant to say is that your lives are centered around what the Watchtower calls “present truth.” The Watchtower’s “present truth” is ever changing, ever shifting, like sand. It must change because it cannot stand the test of time. For example, we were told in 1969 that we would never grow old in this system of things. We were also told repeatedly that the end of this system would come within the 20th century. It’s all in print. You cannot name one Watchtower prophecy that ever came true. Not one. Strange for an organization which claimed IN PRINT to be God’s prophet, don’t you think?
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Letter to my JW elder brother
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini sent the following letter to my older brother, a jw elder in grand prairie, texas, who actively shuns me since i left the religion for conscientious reasons two years ago.. may 11, 2017. dear ronnie,.
in the opening scenes of the movie gone with the wind, a field worker hollers out, “”quttin’ time!” big sam protests, saying, “i’s da fo’man on tara.
i sez when it’s quittin’ time.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
@Pete Zahut, that's the nice thing about having disassociated from the Watchtower for conscientious reasons; I no longer have to post under an alias. I realize that the Watchtower is closely watching the posts on this site. It just illustrates how much they fear those who willingly leave their corrupt organization. (I have no idea who Simon is, nor do I care, to be honest.)
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Witnessing to two JW elders
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini was approached by two jehovah’s witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the jw .org website.
each man carried a bible and an apple ipad.
they told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the bible, and asked if i was a bible reader.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
@Listener, you wrote:
<<As regards the point about the GC being 'spirit begotten sons' due to their being in the sanctuary, I hadn't heard that before so appreciate you mentioning it.>>
The Watchtower's comment about serving in the sanctuary being representative of their spirit begotten condition while on earth is *not* said of the Great Crowd; however, since Revelation 7:15 clearly places the GC in the sanctuary, it naturally applies to them as well.
Prior to 1935, the Watchtower taught that all Christians were spirit anointed, though there were two classes. The hope of everlasting life on earth was understood to apply to non-Christians. Rutherford hatched the whole idea of two classes of Christians having separate hopes.
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Witnessing to two JW elders
by Roger Kirkpatrick ini was approached by two jehovah’s witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the jw .org website.
each man carried a bible and an apple ipad.
they told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the bible, and asked if i was a bible reader.
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Roger Kirkpatrick
I was approached by two Jehovah’s Witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the JW .ORG website. Each man carried a Bible and an Apple iPad. They told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the Bible, and asked if I was a Bible reader. I replied that I have read and studied the Bible and that, while I consider myself to be a spiritual person, I have no interest at all in organized religion. I also told them that I am familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses enough to have concerns about some of their teachings. They asked if I could be more specific.
I said that I particularly have a problem with the Watchtower teaching of two classes of Christians having separate hopes, with only 144,000 going to heaven, when the Bible teaches that all Christians share one hope. (Ephesians 4:4)
I asked them to use their iPads to access the book Insight On the Scriptures (the Watchtower’s Bible encyclopedia), and to look up the word ‘sanctuary,’ making note of the definition provided there. They did so, noting the definition, “a divine habitation.” Next, I asked them to access the Watchtower’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures and to look up Luke chapter 1, verses 9 and 21, making note of the literal meaning of the Greek word rendered there as ‘sanctuary.’ They did so, acknowledging the expression “divine habitation.” Next, I asked them to look up Revelation chapter 7, verse 15, making note of the literal meaning of the same Greek word rendered there as ‘temple.’ They did so, again acknowledging the expression “divine habitation.” I then asked the following question: According to that scripture, where in the spiritual temple did John see the “great crowd” worshiping God, in the outer courtyard (as the Watchtower teaches) or in the sanctuary? They had to admit that, according to that scripture, John saw the “great crowd” worshiping God in the sanctuary (divine habitation) of the spiritual temple.
Finally, I asked them to look up the word ‘temple’ in the book Insight On the Scriptures to see what it says concerning the hope of those worshiping God in the sanctuary of the spiritual temple. They read for themselves where it says, “The Holy [or sanctuary] represents their condition as spirit-begotten sons of God, with heavenly life in view, and they will attain to that heavenly reward when their fleshly bodies are laid aside in death.” I asked if they believe the “great crowd” to be spirit-begotten sons of God. They never did answer that question, but said that they needed to do some more research on the information I had provided.
I then asked them to access the article, “Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?” in the July 2009 Awake magazine. I directed their attention to the following statement from that article: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds objectionable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.” After they had read that statement, I asked, “In view of that statement, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses actively shun exemplary Christians, including family members, who voluntarily leave the religion for conscientious reasons, such as Watchtower teachings which contradict the Bible?” Again, they could not answer my question.